{"id":4361,"date":"2016-05-24T15:36:00","date_gmt":"2016-05-24T13:36:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/chartmogul.com\/blog\/?p=4361"},"modified":"2023-08-10T12:10:37","modified_gmt":"2023-08-10T10:10:37","slug":"early-saas-growth-workable","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/chartmogul.com\/blog\/early-saas-growth-workable\/","title":{"rendered":"Early SaaS growth and the path to $20M ARR"},"content":{"rendered":"

You can also check out this interview on the SaaS Open Mic Podcast<\/a>, or subscribe on\u00a0iTunes<\/a>:<\/p>\n

https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/chartmogul\/episode-01<\/p>\n

\n

Ed: First tell us about Workable<\/a>.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: Workable is a SaaS software aimed at SMB. What we do is everything around the hiring process. From the moment you make a job description to the moment you put an offer letter to someone. We manage everything\u200a\u2014\u200afrom careers pages, collecting applicants, syndicating your jobs and advertising them, getting your talent pool, helping you collaborate with your colleagues to discuss candidates and manage interviews. The field is typically called \u201capplicant tracking system,\u201d which I really don\u2019t like at all because it\u2019s really old fashioned.<\/p>\n

Ed: Okay, so it\u2019s managing that whole process end-to-end and giving it a complete solution. How did you guys start? What\u2019s the founding story?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: The company started three years ago, but the product has been on the market for about two. We started in Greece, not a very likely place to start that kind of thing! But by now it\u2019s grown to be a very international company. Our base is in the United States in Boston\u200a\u2014\u200aI moved here recently and a lot of our people are here.<\/p>\n

Right now we have 3,300 business customers all over the world; 60% of them are in the US. We are over $5 million ARR and growing at 15% month-over-month. So it\u2019s been doing reasonably well recently. We raised a round of $27 million led by Balderton and Notion. Basically, we\u2019re in that phase where we want to scale the business.<\/p>\n

\"SaaS
The team at Workable.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

SaaS business model and pricing<\/h1>\n

Ed: There are a lot of good sounding numbers in there so it sounds like things are going pretty well for you guys! If you look back to when you were building the product, was it clear to you from the beginning that the SaaS business model made sense for this product\u200a\u2014\u200aor did you know from the beginning how you would map that out and how you would price it?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: To be honest with you\u2026 No, we didn\u2019t have a very clear idea of everything when we started. We were total noobs back then. But I guess if you start a software company today, it\u2019s likely going to be a cloud software company. It\u2019s likely going to be delivered with a SaaS business model. So, at the time, I don\u2019t think we considered an alternative.<\/p>\n

What is special about Workable is the targets; it fits SMB very squarely. We are not starting with the small companies with clear intention to go massively upmarket, which is most common. We are actually doing an SMB play. And in terms of pricing, exactly how models and metrics work, things are a little bit distorted on our end because you touch the consumer side of metrics and marketing.<\/p>\n

Ed: I noticed you guys have five different pricing tiers on your site. Is that to capture the spread of the market that you\u2019re addressing? Was it always that way?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: Actually yes, we haven\u2019t changed pricing all that much. There\u2019s two ways to see that: either we were right all along \u2026or we\u2019re too late to change our pricing. I think for most companies at our stage, it\u2019s probably the second. And it\u2019s one thing that I think about a lot. But to be honest with you, we don\u2019t focus too much on that aspect. When you\u2019re doing an SMB SaaS, it\u2019s more important to capture the growth, capture the customers, meet their needs\u200a\u2014\u200aand worry later if you could possibly pick up more money from the table.<\/p>\n

SaaS Growth metrics<\/h1>\n

Ed: In terms of capturing and measuring SaaS growth, how do you measure yourselves and what metrics are really important to you? I guess there are some metrics that you look at everyday and use as an indicator for growth of the product.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: Well, all the obvious SaaS metrics that most people are looking at. MRR, the movements of MRR. We\u2019re looking at churn a lot. I think what\u2019s also not so common but common in our case: we have a lot of small customers that come and go. The interpretation of churn is harder, because a lot of our smaller customers are just using it for four months, and then four months later on. We have a strong reactivation component. So, there are some interesting metrics like the percentage of revenue coming from reactivation, which you can only judge on the basis of the customers that have already been lost, not the customers you have. On the low end of the market, in some of those metrics you might see slight differences in interpretation.<\/p>\n

But in general, yes we follow the metrics that I see everyone else track. I think that\u2019s a very well-documented part of the business, as well. The business model has matured. If I were starting today, I think in two weeks I could figure out exactly how to monitor and run the business. Of course with a tool like yours, I could even implement it in a day.<\/p>\n

\"SaaS<\/p>\n

SMB churn \/ Seasonality \/ Reactivation<\/h1>\n

Ed: It\u2019s interesting you mentioned your level of reactivation MRR. I\u2019ve seen a lot of small businesses talk about the problem of customers coming on board for a couple of months, getting the value out of the product, and then leaving again. Is that something you would try to fix in the product, or is that not a problem for you guys because you\u2019re able to measure it\u200a\u2014\u200aand you know they\u2019ll come back when they need your service again?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: That\u2019s the thing. If you apply traditional enterprise SaaS thinking on a situation like that, you see a problem where there isn\u2019t one. And you\u2019re trying to fix it by actually forcing behaviors that don\u2019t fit the customers. That\u2019s the conclusion that I\u2019ve arrived at.<\/p>\n

In our case, really small businesses may not be hiring all the time. They may only be hiring once or twice a year. So for them to pay subscription prices all year long doesn\u2019t make sense. To lose their data and start again doesn\u2019t make sense. So one thing that they appreciate about Workable is they can use it for three months, pause it, and come back find all of their data and restart the subscription. And when you look at these customers saying, \u201cI\u2019m canceling my subscription, but I\u2019m really happy and I\u2019ll use it again!\u201d Then you shouldn\u2019t think, \u201cOh, how do I make these people stay longer?\u201d The thing you have to think about is: How do I make sure the next time they need this, they remember who I am and they come back to me?<\/p>\n

\"SaaSSo, let\u2019s say you have a second order marketing machine. Some people who are in your database: They are customers, they\u2019ve been customers in the past, they know who you are, they know how to use the product. You don\u2019t want to be spamming them with emails every month because that would be very annoying, but you somehow need to stay top-of-mind for them. And how do you track that? You track the activation as a percentage of the sleeping database that you have.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s an interesting discussion about metrics, by the way. In the beginning, we\u2019re seeing reactivation as a percentage of the MRR that we currently have. But for [this situation], it\u2019s how many sleepers do you have in there, and how do you improve [their reactivation rate].<\/p>\n

Ed: I\u2019m assuming that you capture that at the point of cancellation. You must be able to categorize the sleepers from the actual churn.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: To be honest with you, we don\u2019t. I guess we could have easily put a little thing there asking them why they left, but it\u2019s one of those things that we haven\u2019t done. You know, when you grow really fast, a lot of the things you should have done, you just don\u2019t do them because you\u2019re doing the features. But in reality what you would like to do is to capture that, to understand who are the people in that category, and market to them specifically in different ways.<\/p>\n

Relative to the discussion of metrics, none of these things can be done if you don\u2019t appreciate how big it is for you, how important<\/em> it is for you. For us for example, it\u2019s really important. For others, it\u2019s not.<\/p>\n

Ed: Maybe there\u2019s something around the notion of canceling versus pausing. It\u2019s a semantic difference between the two.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: We used to just have \u201cCancel\u201d. And the customers would say, \u201cNo I don\u2019t want to cancel. I just want to stop for a while.\u201d And we said, \u201cYes you stop, then you resubscribe.\u201d But this wasn\u2019t obvious. So then we made a button that said \u201cPause\u201d and a separate one that says \u201cCancel\u201d.<\/p>\n

SaaS growth and cost at scale<\/h1>\n

Ed: What would you say are the main challenges for you guys growing? Based on what you\u2019ve said, I guess you have a slightly higher churn rate than some other SaaS businesses may have. But what are the main barriers to growth for you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: It\u2019s not so much the churn because in SMB you have very high customer count churn. But the MRR churn is not big. In fact we have negative net churn. Because the bigger accounts plus some of the upgrades carry it, and the people who left are on the smaller plans.<\/p>\n

I guess the challenge that I believe we will face, and I think this will be the challenge for a lot of SaaS companies as the industry matures, is that in the beginning you figure out your acquisition economics. And then you can use your channels and your acquisition economics to grow really fast. But as you become bigger, other things enter the financial equation. It\u2019s mostly the question of margins. At a bigger scale, the acquisition economics change. The support and maintenance economics change. You need a bigger organization so then you have to start minding not just how much a customer costs to acquire, but also how much a customer costs to support.<\/p>\n

The older generation of startup businesses, the ones who have had IPOs in the past couple of years, the playbook was that you eventually go directly up market, and you go to the customers that will pay so much that they will eventually cover all of those costs. So it\u2019s only a challenge to grow. That\u2019s why the focus on VCs, metrics, everybody in the industry is: \u201cJust get the acquisition economics to grow, and then you\u2019re not going to have to worry about it later.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"SaaSBut I think with this second wave of successful SaaS companies, we\u2019re also looking at mid-market and smaller companies. And there the margins are not going to be solved dramatically by going upmarket. So you really need to build a streamlined, highly self-service business and to be mindful of those metrics.<\/p>\n

Talking about metrics, the SaaS metrics we have are a lot about the usage and the revenue, etc. A lot of companies I see do not have very sophisticated cost-allocation mechanisms inside the company to be able to attribute from salaries, or fully-loaded costs of customer support integrated into the rest of the metrics. And that\u2019s something we\u2019re working on right now.<\/p>\n

Ed: It\u2019s definitely a challenge to capture all of those costs, everything around the core MRR\/acquisition costs. That\u2019s something I\u2019m not sure anybody has solved yet. Would you say there\u2019s a certain tipping point where that suddenly becomes a problem for you\u200a\u2014\u200aor is it something that you should be thinking about that from the early stage?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: Look, I think what happens is that up until $5\u201310mil ARR, your main focus is: Can I have scalable sums that can help me grow really fast? But when you get in that area between 5 and 10, then even if you don\u2019t have it yet, you can clearly see the path to 20. Maybe it\u2019ll be a few months earlier or a few months later, but you know you\u2019re going to get to $20mil ARR. And then you start thinking that once I get to 20, I need to build a business that can credibly claim it will have margins at scale. A business that has economics, that can use capital efficiently, that can get from 20 to 100. You can\u2019t start thinking about that once you\u2019re at 20, because then it would be too late.<\/p>\n

So I think your mindset starts to shift a little bit. As you approach 10, you start thinking that the next big challenge will be [scaling to $100million ARR]. We\u2019re at that stage. Maybe also because we\u2019re at the low-end of the market. So if you have low price point, if your average revenue is $100\u2013200, then it\u2019s much more important.<\/p>\n

Customer LTV\u200a\u2014\u200ais it all it\u2019s cracked up to be?<\/h1>\n

Ed: In terms of Customer Lifetime Value\u2026 is that something you care about or monitor? There\u2019s a lot of discussion on this out there, but I\u2019m curious to know who is actually able to estimate that and to use it.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: Customer LTV is the one common metric that I don\u2019t care at all about, that I think is misleading. I think it\u2019s misleading in very many ways. The most obvious one is that it\u2019s wrong. It\u2019s really difficult to capture the dynamics of upgrades and changes in the product, etc. I have done calculations with five different methods, including your tool, none of them reflect the minimum [value], much less the reality. When I look back on two years of data, it\u2019s not what I see. So having someone produce a formula that makes sense.<\/p>\n

Here\u2019s another issue I see with customer LTV\u200a\u2014\u200ait\u2019s what I like to call the \u201cCompany Lifetime Value.\u201d What I mean is that when you are VC-funded company, and you operate on 18 months of runway, and your LTV is really good\u200a\u2014\u200afour years later, you\u2019re not going to be there to see it. You have to be there to collect that money. I like to look at revenue per year and tune the acquisition and economics to that.<\/p>\n

\"SaaS<\/p>\n

Ed: Okay so you take a fixed, yearly time range for the value, over one year.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Nikos: Yes that\u2019s what I do. And I know in the end [the customer\u2019s overall value] is going to be higher, but if you cannot, at the early stage, have a payback of a year or maybe a little extra (ideally less than a year), then you are just not capital-efficient enough to grow really fast. You need the money back. And I don\u2019t care if I don\u2019t get that money back in five years, because in a venture-funded world\u2026 if you\u2019re not doing well in five years, then you\u2019re not going to be there. There\u2019s going to be competitors in five years. So I think it\u2019s silly to discuss the revenue we\u2019re going to be getting from today\u2019s customers then<\/em>. And to claim that this is somehow contributing to our economics.<\/p>\n

If you’d like to learn more about Customer LTV as a metric, check out the Ultimate LTV Cheat Sheet<\/a>. And if you’re curious about\u00a0your own company’s LTV, get\u00a0an accurate estimate with our LTV calculator<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

We sat down with Nikos Moraitakis, CEO of Workable, to get his view on starting a SaaS company\u200a\u2014\u200aand what it takes to scale to $20million ARR. Pricing? Guess work. Customers? Satisfaction before profit. Metrics? Well\u2026 it\u2019s all in the interpretation.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":15,"featured_media":4363,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[12,14,1998],"tags":[76,173,41,21,19],"class_list":["post-4361","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-gtm","category-pricing","category-retention","tag-customer-success","tag-early-growth","tag-metrics","tag-saas","tag-startup"],"yoast_head":"\nEarly SaaS growth and the path to $20M ARR | ChartMogul<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"We sat down with Nikos Moraitakis, CEO of Workable, to get his view on SaaS growth \u2014\u200aand what it takes to scale to $20million ARR.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/chartmogul.com\/blog\/early-saas-growth-workable\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" 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